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Old 03-04-2021, 12:10 PM   #151
JJohansen
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Don't give up on it, maybe it is some little thing. It is possible that it is just not put together properly as there have been some poorly assembled triggers a while back. Functionally the D1 trigger should work the same as a full DR trigger, except for a shorter line release. Of course I would much rather have a full DR trigger and the latest generation triggers coming out are a huge improvement over even the very good 2n generation triggers. But the mod to a full DR trigger on a D1 is quite a lot of work and really the D1 is 95% as good functionally. If you can take pictures and send me a detailed description of the problem I am pretty sure I can get it working as good as a full DR trigger. Worth a try before heading the full DR trigger mod route.

On another note, for anyone who got a D2 handle DR trigger, I have finally figured out the problems. That trigger I definitely don't recommend as the tolerances required are way too high for the manufacturing system used. During lockdown I figured out the problem ... one side of the box has a pin hole that is slightly lower than the second opposing side and with a milling machine it is possible to fix by just making a hole on the other side a little higher and a little larger. That way the pin sits horizontal and the shaft sear drops center instead of hitting the walls. Of course you would also need to make a slightly larger pin to accommodate the larger diameter. I know that some people did end up getting that trigger ... if you did and are having problems with it I can probably help you fix it.
Thanks Majid,

I have the larger DR trigger on my big gun, very heavy load, and it performs perfectly. I pulled both triggers and compared them visually the best I could. The overall geometry of the moving parts looks very very similar, and I can't work out exactly why the d1 drop in trigger has such poor performance. The rear roller that engages the spear on the D1 trigger has a small washer on one side- perhaps the roller was not wide enough to fit the housing and this was a quick fix? My larger DR mechanism does not have this washer.

I also am suspicious of the pin used to index the rear roller in the vertical slot of the mechanism housing. It's a rolled bit of steel, rather than a solid pin. To my eye, it seems as if this pin acts as an axle which the rear roller rotates around. I would think that a solid, round pin would functionally work better than a softer out of round rolled pin. However, my full DR from my larger gun has the same pin and works fine.

Compared to the larger DR trigger, and every other trigger I've shot, the pull on the D1 trigger is quite heavy. I'm shooting two 14mm bands at 365% and it feels way overloaded
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Old 03-04-2021, 03:49 PM   #152
popgun pete
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

The roll pin or steel split spring pin driven through the roller tooth is only there to stop the roller tooth falling out of the trigger mechanism. Ideally it never touches those slightly curved side slots in the housing walls except during loading of the shaft tail into the mechanism. The cup cut-out on the sear lever arm is what controls the roller tooth when it is engaging the shaft tail notch.
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Old 03-04-2021, 04:20 PM   #153
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

What may make the trigger hard to pull is the sear lever and trigger not exactly lined up on each other. In many trigger mechanisms the housing walls act as cheeks that the levers slide past, so they always line up on each other provided their edges are square cut to the side profile of the levers. When levers were stamped out they often were not! With cut out levers in a folded metal housing the levers often have a significant clearance on either side which can cause the levers to not sit in exactly the same plane and be at a slight angle to each other longitudinally. This means the roller contact on the nose of the sear lever does not sit square to the curved notch that it engages on the top of the trigger. The contact not being fully across the engaging faces pushes contact pressure up and increases the trigger pull. The plastic washers in the housing on either side of the sear lever are meant to align the sear lever in the housing by centralising it, ditto for the wound double leg biasing springs either side of the trigger, but they don't always achieve this. Any misalignment of the pivot axle holes can also cant the levers preventing them sitting square to each other if the axles are not exactly aligned and parallel in a folded metal housing.
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Old 03-05-2021, 01:29 AM   #154
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJohansen View Post
Thanks Majid,

I have the larger DR trigger on my big gun, very heavy load, and it performs perfectly. I pulled both triggers and compared them visually the best I could. The overall geometry of the moving parts looks very very similar, and I can't work out exactly why the d1 drop in trigger has such poor performance. The rear roller that engages the spear on the D1 trigger has a small washer on one side- perhaps the roller was not wide enough to fit the housing and this was a quick fix? My larger DR mechanism does not have this washer.

I also am suspicious of the pin used to index the rear roller in the vertical slot of the mechanism housing. It's a rolled bit of steel, rather than a solid pin. To my eye, it seems as if this pin acts as an axle which the rear roller rotates around. I would think that a solid, round pin would functionally work better than a softer out of round rolled pin. However, my full DR from my larger gun has the same pin and works fine.

Compared to the larger DR trigger, and every other trigger I've shot, the pull on the D1 trigger is quite heavy. I'm shooting two 14mm bands at 365% and it feels way overloaded

The spring pin used on the back roller is not the problem unless it is protruding one side more than the other. It really has no load on it, but I agree it is something that can be improved as aesthetically it doesn't look good and the spring tends to be more prone to corrosion than 316 SS if a high carbon steel shaft is used.

Now the washer to the side of the shaft sear is a concern. The shaft sear should not have a washer or at least if it does then it should be on both sides. The shaft sear should be 10.6mm wide ... can you check the thickness of your shaft sear? Those sears are supposed to be CNC machined out of a single block and actually are superior to the older full DR shaft sears. I just hope this was not switched out to something different. If you can post pictures of the sear and caliper the thickness I will have a better idea of what the problem is.
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Old 03-05-2021, 01:41 AM   #155
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
What may make the trigger hard to pull is the sear lever and trigger not exactly lined up on each other. In many trigger mechanisms the housing walls act as cheeks that the levers slide past, so they always line up on each other provided their edges are square cut to the side profile of the levers. When levers were stamped out they often were not! With cut out levers in a folded metal housing the levers often have a significant clearance on either side which can cause the levers to not sit in exactly the same plane and be at a slight angle to each other longitudinally. This means the roller contact on the nose of the sear lever does not sit square to the curved notch that it engages on the top of the trigger. The contact not being fully across the engaging faces pushes contact pressure up and increases the trigger pull. The plastic washers in the housing on either side of the sear lever are meant to align the sear lever in the housing by centralising it, ditto for the wound double leg biasing springs either side of the trigger, but they don't always achieve this. Any misalignment of the pivot axle holes can also cant the levers preventing them sitting square to each other if the axles are not exactly aligned and parallel in a folded metal housing.

This trigger looks like it has an 8mm sear. I don't like that batch that came out. The shaft sear should be 10mm with a 5.9mm roller. Mario did a small batch of 8mm sears as he was able to use laser cutting (much cheaper). Results were not good with this and he finally was convinced to completely change the manufacturing to go with much higher accuracy EDM wire cutting. This allowed the use of full 10mm shaft sear. It also improved dramatically the tolerances as EDM is 10x or more precision. This is especially important in pin holes where the rotation on pin axis is critical. On your shaft sear I can see a pin for the front roller protruding one side more than the other which makes me think this is an 8mm sear rather than 10mm. With a 10mm sear there would be only about .25mm clearance each side before it reaches the box walls.
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Old 03-05-2021, 02:03 AM   #156
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
This trigger looks like it has an 8mm sear. I don't like that batch that came out. The shaft sear should be 10mm with a 5.9mm roller. Mario did a small batch of 8mm sears as he was able to use laser cutting (much cheaper). Results were not good with this and he finally was convinced to completely change the manufacturing to go with much higher accuracy EDM wire cutting. This allowed the use of full 10mm shaft sear. It also improved dramatically the tolerances as EDM is 10x or more precision. This is especially important in pin holes where the rotation on pin axis is critical. On your shaft sear I can see a pin for the front roller protruding one side more than the other which makes me think this is an 8mm sear rather than 10mm. With a 10mm sear there would be only about .25mm clearance each side before it reaches the box walls.
I only bought it to check it out as at the time there were no photos of the innards as it seemed to be a big secret with respect to the details. I don't plan on using it as I have quit making guns and nothing needs a transplant right now. The more parts that you have in a trigger mechanism the precision requirements go up as parts spacing and relative alignments become more critical and you can have a knock on effect. In the sixties and seventies guns were made simply to churn them out at affordable prices and Asian made stuff had yet to enter/pollute the market.

Just checking on my orders I purchased it from Planet Multi Store (PMS) in October 2018 and it arrived about a month later.
Ermes Sub Mechanism Double Roll STANDARD Item Number ERMES-00.0004.00

PMS had a special offer at the time on it, plus the ERMES-11.0009.00 - Ermes SUB KIT ASSEMBLY MECHANISMS STANDARD and the ERMES-11.0001.00 - Ermes SUB KIT cover COMPARTMENT WEIGHT STANDARD.

Last edited by popgun pete; 03-05-2021 at 06:24 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 06-26-2021, 02:20 AM   #157
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJohansen View Post
Thanks Majid,

I have the larger DR trigger on my big gun, very heavy load, and it performs perfectly. I pulled both triggers and compared them visually the best I could. The overall geometry of the moving parts looks very very similar, and I can't work out exactly why the d1 drop in trigger has such poor performance. The rear roller that engages the spear on the D1 trigger has a small washer on one side- perhaps the roller was not wide enough to fit the housing and this was a quick fix? My larger DR mechanism does not have this washer.

I also am suspicious of the pin used to index the rear roller in the vertical slot of the mechanism housing. It's a rolled bit of steel, rather than a solid pin. To my eye, it seems as if this pin acts as an axle which the rear roller rotates around. I would think that a solid, round pin would functionally work better than a softer out of round rolled pin. However, my full DR from my larger gun has the same pin and works fine.

Compared to the larger DR trigger, and every other trigger I've shot, the pull on the D1 trigger is quite heavy. I'm shooting two 14mm bands at 365% and it feels way overloaded

I had someone send me a bunch of the D1 triggers and I have to say the best description of those triggers is that they are defective. While some were better than others, all the triggers with the 8mm sears are totally not working. The front roller hole for the little roller is way too large and thus the roller will go inside the arms of the sear and will work just like a friction trigger. The roller won't roll. Also some of the triggers I saw had a missing spacer that keeps the trigger walls from deforming under load. This is necessary as the D1 trigger boxes are made of 1.5mm sheet and the distance between the walls is very large (around 16mm!) so that it is able to fit the D1 cavity ... I feel this spacer is absolutely necessary to keep the walls buttressed.

I had a long talk with Mario regarding this and he agreed he would replace any of these faulty triggers with normal DR triggers. I don't think he wants to make the D1 or D2 triggers anymore as they are extremely difficult to make to tolerance at a reasonable price. So if you have one of these faulty triggers you should contact him for a replacement. If you need to make them work I can probably walk you through it in fixing the trigger. From all the 9 faulty triggers that this friend of mine sent I was able to fix all of them. But you would need access to a milling machine with DRO and maybe also need to customize a few pins on a lathe.
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Old 06-26-2021, 09:13 PM   #158
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Hi guys, interesting info you are finding. I was just about to order a d1 double roller mech for a new 120 gun I'm putting together, in light of these findings would you still recommend the d1 double roller? Or just sticking with the original d1 mech?

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Old 06-27-2021, 12:51 AM   #159
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I would not recommend you get it as the chances are that you will not get one of the original batch that work perfectly. Just use the original Pathos trigger as it will work really well since the trigger sear is plastic (so no scratching). Just pay attention when you load a shaft and remember that the housing is plastic and the shaft is metal ... so no smacking shafts in. Also keep loads to a max of 2 bands.

If you do decide you want to upgrade the trigger, I would go the more difficult route and get a full DR Long trigger and fit it in the handle. It needs some DIY skills, but if I can do it anyone else can! IMHO the new DR trigger Long is by far the best trigger on the market today. It is a 3rd generation of the original DR trigger.
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Old 06-27-2021, 12:55 AM   #160
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Thanks for the feedback, I was half pie thinking of just sticking with the original mech anyway as the double roller replacement will cost me $150 over here in Aus. If I get the shop to measure that shaft sear and it is the proper 10mm then would this be an indication that it is the good original mech?

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Old 06-27-2021, 01:32 AM   #161
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Originally Posted by Kiwizach View Post
Thanks for the feedback, I was half pie thinking of just sticking with the original mech anyway as the double roller replacement will cost me $150 over here in Aus. If I get the shop to measure that shaft sear and it is the proper 10mm then would this be an indication that it is the good original mech?

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Yes if you have the 10 mm CNC shaft sear then I would also want to check one more thing ... the spacer in the back that strengthens the box. For some reason most of the boxes I saw with the defective triggers did not have that installed. Another thing is the fitting of the trigger has to be done properly on the handle. It is maybe a 5 minute job to fix the handle to fit the trigger but you have to know where to file. I did some pictures of that so if you do get this trigger PM me and will send you the pix.

Personally I would just stick with the original D1 trigger unless you have a lot of patience to work out any possible problems. One thing to note with both triggers is that the loading butt is incredibly fragile and can break. I highly recommend you reinforce the loading pad with CF. Of course if you are from SA or Australia you don't believe in loading pads and will remove it anyway ... so no problems there. But for us mortals the loading pad is a must to load heavy bands and on the D1 that needs reinforcing.
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Old 06-27-2021, 07:33 AM   #162
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

Haha that makes me laugh, I recently got a meandros 95cm, first gun I've owned with a loading pad and it absolutely kills me! I've never really had a sore chest/solar plexus from loading before so I look forward to removing the but pad on the d1 as soon as I get it out of the box!

One more question if you have experience: Will the d1 mech fit a 7.5mm hunt shaft? I will tie mono to rest tab.
Sorry for taking thread off topic.

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Old 07-01-2021, 01:16 AM   #163
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

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Haha that makes me laugh, I recently got a meandros 95cm, first gun I've owned with a loading pad and it absolutely kills me! I've never really had a sore chest/solar plexus from loading before so I look forward to removing the but pad on the d1 as soon as I get it out of the box!

One more question if you have experience: Will the d1 mech fit a 7.5mm hunt shaft? I will tie mono to rest tab.
Sorry for taking thread off topic.

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If you are talking about the default plastic trigger from Pathos, some Hunt shafts will not fit because they have the shark fin all the way back. So check if the the shark fins on the Hunt shaft are standard or set all the way back. On the SS Ermessub trigger the Hunt shaft would work with even the optimized shark fins. As for mono inside the housing (which I don't recommend), both should have no problem with that as the box is very wide.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:10 PM   #164
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

I retrieved my Ermes-Sub double roller trigger mechanism from the spares box and did some measurements with Vernier callipers. The trigger piece is 5.90 mm wide, the sear lever is 7.86 mm wide and the sear tooth roller is 6.96 mm in diameter. I noted that flipping the sear lever from facing forwards to rearwards it always angles to the same side. This means that while the pivot axle is square in the housing the pivot hole in the sear lever is drilled slightly askew in the lever and that is why the smaller roller in the sear lever nose sits slightly to one side in the trigger's cupped retention step. Not so good! A close-up image of the sear lever surface shows the machining marks, note that they have probably been partly polished out by rumbling in abrasive particles. When you make a trigger mechanism where the levers are not controlled by the housing walls everything needs to be drilled perpendicular to the levers' lateral edges. I also note that the sear lever rocks slightly side to side on its pivot pin which means the pivot hole in the lever is slightly loose on the pivot pin, again not so good.
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Old 07-03-2021, 07:12 PM   #165
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Re: Double Roller Trigger for Pathos handle, Ermes Sub

EDM wire cutting uses an electrical discharge to burn out shapes with a moving wire working something like a bandsaw conceptually, but the problem with this trigger mechanism are the holes in the levers as if they ain't drilled square to the lever sides then the geometry is mucked up. The pivot pin in the nose roller sticks out more on one side to keep the other side from scrubbing the housing sidewall as if it poked out on that side then the alignment problem would have been entirely obvious to the buyer.

When you have a roller as a sear tooth it makes a line contact across the contact face of the spear tail notch even if the spear tail notch is cupped, unless the curvatures match. If the sear lever is canted in the mechanism then so is the sear tooth roller because it is controlled by the half cup cut-out in the top of the sear lever. That reduces the contact between spear tail notches and sear tooth to a point contact which is not so good (or the spear tail may be angled slightly in the housing). The only saving grace is the sear tooth roller can rotate to a new position each time rather than mark up at one location.

Square cut sear teeth in US and Australian cam lock trigger mechanisms can afford a patch contact with the shaft tail, otherwise they create a line contact side to side if the sear tooth has rolled forward slightly and the respective faces are not fully butted.
Fixing skew drilled levers involves drilling them out in a jig to a larger size with a bigger diameter pivot pin then being used, but the drill tends to follow the original hole if the drill bit can wander, which means most likely the levers have to be scrapped. Of course the wonky trigger mechanisms will still work, but much of their advantage is lost.

Last edited by popgun pete; 07-03-2021 at 07:25 PM.
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