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Old 10-21-2016, 10:43 AM   #31
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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Originally Posted by Nix View Post
Couldn't a different muzzle be designed to place the bands at the desired level?


Yes - you can . For a hybrid especially. Not so much for a wood gun- since the hybrid has a delrin muzzle - it would be easy to modify a new batch to include wings - or (I like this idea best) - a removable pin.
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Old 10-21-2016, 11:24 AM   #32
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
Yes - you can . For a hybrid especially. Not so much for a wood gun- since the hybrid has a delrin muzzle - it would be easy to modify a new batch to include wings - or (I like this idea best) - a removable pin.
If you do that make the pin out of cf or some other ultra light material . A heavy stainless pin will help with muzzle jump but not becuse it levels the band's but becuse of the added weight at the muzzle and the extra surface aria .

Anything other that mounting the band's higher ,won't change the angle force of the band's it will simply change it from a long duration shallow angle , to a short duration steep angle (from the pin or wing ,the the band atachment point )
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Old 10-21-2016, 11:32 AM   #33
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Re: another wedge hybrid



Band Alignment





High handle



Soon all guns will look like this

It took Victor years to achieve what is a near perfect gun.
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Old 10-21-2016, 12:46 PM   #34
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Re: another wedge hybrid

the abellan definately has a few nice features- it's a bit lightweight though.

I personally don't think wood guns are the future period.

I think that hybrids are the way to go- they just need a total redesign and update - with things like
high rear handles - 70/30 instead of 50/50 wood to tube ratio - reverse mechs and proper band and spear diameter selection.

I have built around 175 hybrids and all of them were mid handle and semi mid handles (rear plus)
I decided to try a rear handle one and it was great- not muzzle heavy at all.
But when I made myself that 70/30 rear handle wedge shape gun- and shot it in the pool- I immediatly knew I had stumbled on something incredible and special. This gun shoots / swings and handles like a dream- easily the smoothest feeling gun - I have ever made or used. I am keen to get one into a proper test by a neutral person - so I can prove what I already know. This gun is ALREADY bad ass- but I am not done tweaking it yet.
When I finish this design and dial it in with the right bands and spear- I know it's gonna perform off the charts.

While I am using the abellan as a reference standard for certain features- such as handle height and band alignment _ I am using a cf 70/30 rear handle hybrid with an enclosed track as the platform to acheive those features.
The reason I am using a rear hndle hybrid for this is because they swing better than any wood gun period. A 1 1/8" tube - (even with two bands flapping) is STILL gonna have far less drag when swung from right to left.
Things like the target grip are also no for everyone- since I use a modular handle system - and people can choose which grip they want - INCLUDING the royal arms target grip - which is almost identical to the abellan grip-(just a little smoother looking)
I give people a choice in grips and maybe one out of 6 or 8 - want a target grip. People LOVE the hogue rubberized ar 15 grip.

One thing I can say for sure - is that one style of gun- one style of grip- is not for eveyone- and you can do all the testing in the world - but people will still want different features in their guns. Even the paint jobs- not eveyone likes a clear coated wood gun.
Some people like a gun with cool colors on it.. Heck - some people hate reverse mechs- some people hate rear handle spearguns- so don't hold your breath for all guns to look like the abellan.

Also - the divers I have sold more than 9 out of ten to ;have demanded an enclosed track. I will concede that et guns don't SHOOT better - unless overpowering a shaft is a factor- they DO load easier and they definatly SELL better for me.

Terry maas said in his blue water hunting and freediving (the bible) - that you could let nasa engineers design the perfect speargun- that performs the best in every way - you give it to 20 spearos - and after a few months - you will have 20 different versions of that gun- since they will all modify it to suit them and each one will swear that theirs is the best.- Just the nature of spearos and their spearguns.

It is my suspicion that alot of the reason certain people like the abellan is BECAUSE not everyone has one and they are seen as "exotic" - If everyone had one- there are a bunch of people who wouldn't WANT them anymore! This sounds funny , but it is SO true.

My guess is - if everyone bought them - you would have people saying - I have one of the original ones and they are the good ones.- haha- sad but true.

I think all guns will look like this - (I hope so anyway) - with little chaos symbols on them (my logo)- haha
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:38 AM   #35
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
If you do that make the pin out of cf or some other ultra light material . A heavy stainless pin will help with muzzle jump but not becuse it levels the band's but becuse of the added weight at the muzzle and the extra surface aria .

Anything other that mounting the band's higher ,won't change the angle force of the band's it will simply change it from a long duration shallow angle , to a short duration steep angle (from the pin or wing ,the the band atachment point )


phil,
you are saying that - if you don't attach the bands higher- but use a pin - it will still cause flip? But the bands is slack for the first 12 to 14 " from the muzzle back - so wouldn't the band (after being stretched over a pin and loaded) - upon release - it would pull forward at the higher plane - and then it would reach the point where it's not pulling anymore- as the band reaches the slack point and stops pulling the spear - wouldn't this happen?
What you are describing - sounds like it would be the effect of a roller gun - since it pulls all the way to the muzzle- but a conventional setup wouldn't do that - would it?
I like the idea of a pin- since it can be removed - if it doesn't pan out - or if people didn't like it - they have an option. But the fact that no one has pins on their muzzles except like one company on one gun - it seems like it must not be a good idea IRL - despite how it looks on paper.
I mean guys like you - who have been doing this a while and are known for the very highest quality guns - aren't using band elevators - it makes me conflicted. I only wish that guns that have brackets at the muzzle - didn't tangle so much upon firing because they are a good way to have a high attachment point without wings or pins . I had a jbl magnum for years and it had one nice feature- it had this bracket wing thing that elevated the bands but pinched them in place - so they never tangled - pretty cool- I have a sort of half assed plan that I procrastinate on- making some muzzles with that feature. Ever see those Phil? what do you think of those as a solution?
Or is this even a problem at all - ? or does it need to be solved? or is it splittlng hairs?
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Old 10-22-2016, 03:01 PM   #36
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
phil,
you are saying that - if you don't attach the bands higher- but use a pin - it will still cause flip? But the bands is slack for the first 12 to 14 " from the muzzle back - so wouldn't the band (after being stretched over a pin and loaded) - upon release - it would pull forward at the higher plane - and then it would reach the point where it's not pulling anymore- as the band reaches the slack point and stops pulling the spear - wouldn't this happen?
What you are describing - sounds like it would be the effect of a roller gun - since it pulls all the way to the muzzle- but a conventional setup wouldn't do that - would it?
I like the idea of a pin- since it can be removed - if it doesn't pan out - or if people didn't like it - they have an option. But the fact that no one has pins on their muzzles except like one company on one gun - it seems like it must not be a good idea IRL - despite how it looks on paper.
I mean guys like you - who have been doing this a while and are known for the very highest quality guns - aren't using band elevators - it makes me conflicted. I only wish that guns that have brackets at the muzzle - didn't tangle so much upon firing because they are a good way to have a high attachment point without wings or pins . I had a jbl magnum for years and it had one nice feature- it had this bracket wing thing that elevated the bands but pinched them in place - so they never tangled - pretty cool- I have a sort of half assed plan that I procrastinate on- making some muzzles with that feature. Ever see those Phil? what do you think of those as a solution?
Or is this even a problem at all - ? or does it need to be solved? or is it splittlng hairs?
You are thinking of the band's retracting as two seprate stages ,it really happens all at once . while what is really happening is when the trigger is pulled the force is basicly the centerline of the band slot pushing back to the handle , and a small offset force if the shaft is way out of line with the handle and band slot .

If you raise the handle too high it will start kicking the other way


Scott merlo uses a pin ( and was the first to do it ,and he also came up with the uhmw track ) I also use elevators on some big guns , but only becuse it makes for a better sight picture , on or off doesn't change proformance at all.

The jbl muzzle is a great solution and I've thought about something like that also , I also have a way of tieing in bands on top that works really well without the madusa effect they normaly have
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Old 10-22-2016, 03:16 PM   #37
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Re: another wedge hybrid

Here's a pic
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Old 10-22-2016, 05:20 PM   #38
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
Here's a pic


Yeah- I am familiar with that technique also. I saw a really cool way of doing something similar from josh at nep - he has 1/4" metal grommet/sleeves at the muzzle on top - that go al the way down through the gun from the top down - then the bottom half of the holes are drilled to 3/8" with a forsner bit.

Then he cuts the 5/8" bands at a very very sharp angle- then pulls the band through the hole with needle nose piers until they get past the cut part.

He then cuts off the bands flush on the bottom of the gun-= and they dont pull out for some reason. It has very similar effect as the way you have shown

he says that it doesn't tangle that way either
very cool - i like it

I have got to figure out who will machine some muzzles with the bridge thing that the jbl has

One other idea that your picture is making me think of is: maybe I could put those euro - screw in style - threaded cap things that the bands screw into- to take those and use hardened steel rod that has a 90deg bend to put through holes ike you pictured- they could be placed- so that they are just the right height and also the second pair can be placed outside the first pair - so that the bands lay flat - next to each other and not stack up- blocking view.
I could use a pair of those articulated metal wishbones that come in pairs - (with one being much wider than the first one - so they don't pile up) - one pair of those can be used at the muzzle to keep everything neat.
I'm gonna pursue this idea - since it is the only workable plan I have come up with yet to tame the bands at the muzzle end. It also might make it possible for me to make my own muzzles- since without band holes -
(i would only have 1/8" hole to allow the rod or string to go through - making it much easier to produce
If you or anyone else knows of anyone who would machine some muzzles out of delrin for me- since tin man wont make me any more of the ones I have now. please put me in touch with any machinist that might do it.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:13 PM   #39
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Re: another wedge hybrid

A hybrid gun is especially difficult to push performance on because it is relatively low mass gun and has most of the mass at the back rather than the muzzle ... that is just a worst case scenario. If you want to get high performance out of that gun, you need to go with a shallow trigger and high handle. Take it from someone that has spent 3 or 4 years trying to push performance on ultra light pipe guns. Another thing, if you want high performance, you need to ditch the ET as it just compromises velocity too much. Again take it from someone who wouldn't touch a gun that wasn't ET ... it only took a few penetration shots with and without ET to realize that I needed to modify all my ET guns.

I am not a gun seller so I really don't pay much attention to what a customer wants. I do know what I want. I want a gun that shoots super flat with very high velocity and high penetration and high accuracy with minimal felt recoil. This way when I hunt clear water I only worry about one thing ... how much I have to lead a fish. The gun and setup does all the rest.
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Old 10-23-2016, 01:05 PM   #40
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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A hybrid gun is especially difficult to push performance on because it is relatively low mass gun and has most of the mass at the back rather than the muzzle ... that is just a worst case scenario. If you want to get high performance out of that gun, you need to go with a shallow trigger and high handle. Take it from someone that has spent 3 or 4 years trying to push performance on ultra light pipe guns. Another thing, if you want high performance, you need to ditch the ET as it just compromises velocity too much. Again take it from someone who wouldn't touch a gun that wasn't ET ... it only took a few penetration shots with and without ET to realize that I needed to modify all my ET guns.

I am not a gun seller so I really don't pay much attention to what a customer wants. I do know what I want. I want a gun that shoots super flat with very high velocity and high penetration and high accuracy with minimal felt recoil. This way when I hunt clear water I only worry about one thing ... how much I have to lead a fish. The gun and setup does all the rest.
not sure why a gun with most of the mass at the back is a probem- even on the holy grail - abellan- it has most of the mass at the back.
Idk - which hybrids you tried- but on mine- I put the plug at the muzzle far enough back - that it has enough room for 100 to 150 grams of lead.
so I put lead at the muzzle for mass. Also - have you tried a rear handle hybrid ?- with an open track?
here is the thing with the whole - et - lowering performance thing- yopu are the ony one who believes that. I was on the Hatch website the other day and he says that - during poo tests - they have seen that et guns have better accuracy. I have read that in numerous places.
whether it's true or not - the perception is that it is an improvement - and the builders sites all make claims to that effect.
When I first started making et guns- I had a bit made- because I didn't like the 1/4" opening on top that everyone was using back then- so I had one made with 3/16" opening- with 8.4mm - as the diameter- which was the standard size for 8mm et guns back then. What I noticed- was that- the fit was too tight- and seemed to add friction - where it wasn't needed.
I had a new bit made - to 8.9 mm and it has made a world of difference.

As far as the hybrid- pipe gun- having less mass at the muzzle- a you have to do is put lead behind the muzzle - in front of the plug- inside the tube - and it changes everything.
As far as et hybrids - with a gun that has 70% of its length as tube- on a 57" gun - it only has about 15" (35cm) of et- the rest is open - and with all that room in the track - it's a huge difference.
Also- the uhmw tracks - vs poured tracks - is no contest on friction.
The poured tracks I do are so hard and slick.
So - while your pool testing - might reveal some things - public perception is quite different- STILL.

That being said- on my personal guns- ALL have deep open tracks on them- but not because of lost speed or performance- it's because I shoot big black groupers in their holes sometimes- and the spear doesn't exit the track all the way- and the grouper thrashing around will break enclosed tracks- (seen it happen - more than once)

Riddle me this- if an 8mm spear is siting in an 8.9 mm track- the only part of the spear touching the track is the bottom. Since the bands pull down slightly - the spear is only EVER touching the bottom of the track. - so where is the friction coming from? I believe that on tight tracks with less than .5mm space - there is a vacuum or suction that is created- from the water- as the spear moves through. With enough space - this is not going to happen
so the only question is - how much space is needed to solve this?
I have done tests of my own- (a few thousand shots- hunting) and i'm going to say - that magic number is .9mm. Until you test a gun with a bigger track - you can't say it ISN'T- right?
If you wanted to test my theory- take a gun with an 8mm et - and put a 7mm shaft in it- and compared penetration with another gun with same bands- same length- same spear and see what happens. I can tell you - it will be the same.
I like open track guns- but many people love their et guns. You are declaring that they perform subpar - is quite a revlevation.
To a builder like me- who changes my design as I adapt - it's not such a big deal- since my newer models will always reflect the newest info .
But many builders whose designs do not change must either believe you are wrong - or they are just unaware of your testing- OR they have their own tests that suggest the opposite of what you say.
I'm gonns set up a penetration test of my own and plan to do extensive testing of all the custom - high end guns - floating around here.
between my close friends - I think we have every gun brand covered.
Hell - my friend Steve Bass - has 37 guns- all of them higher end .
He has a gorgeous - brand new wong hybrid with a handle that is easily 3.5" below the track- I gotta see if that thing muzzle flips- by all the info I have- it should - but something tells me it will shoot just fine somehow.
I think he paid around 2000$ for it (its 65" or longer)
I mean your testing makes me feel like MY guns are sub par - but mine are ALOT closer to what you have indicated will perform well than almost any of the other higher end guns. If your tests bother ME - it should be scaring the crap out of them- haha
- and it should have them completely going back "to the drawing board"
all I need to do is tweak mine a little.
I have 3 guns of my own - a 53" rear handle wood gun - with rev mech and deep open track - 57" 70/30 hybrid with rev mech and open track (even in wood part) and a 69" - 5 band et wood gun - semi mid hande - 9mm track- all have high handle placement
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:29 AM   #41
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Re: another wedge hybrid

Man, this forum could so do with a "like" button;-)
I would have liked the Abellan props and SpearQ8's comments in a heart beat, no surprise. But there's a lot of good and helpful info in this thread. Hope I wont derail it now:-).

As much respect as I have for the drive of builders, for your beautiful gun - and for Dr. Mass - the adopted NASA comment makes little sense here. The reason you'd have 20 different setups of a golden gun is simple: Most spearos, and many builders, don't test for outright performance. They set up guns based on feel and experience. Bar any design errors that makes the gun harder to use in the water, I would take the NASA, and dare I say Majd's approach to gun design and set up, over the 'feel and experience approach'. But actually, I would love if builders did both...

Please let's not go into the old Real World Testing vs. Pool argument. My argument is that it is not an 'either or', they are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, I would say. (Some of you say, that you do pool tests, but I never see the videos or the results).
Feel and experience; those are both amazing when hunting, diving and setting up a gun for being practical in the water but honestly they will not give you answers to a lot of the questions posed here.

Case in point, you doubt and argue that your loose-fit ET doesn't have an impact on performance. It's indeed a very good question but might I humbly suggest that you build two identical guns except that one has an ET and the other doesn't. Test them for penetration and accuracy in a pool and you will have your answer.
Once you have established that, then build two other almost identically guns. One with a low, traditional handle and one with a handle as high up as possible. A pool session or two, and you will know...
BTW, the rule for one-on-one testing is to change only one parameter at the time and test in as much of a controlled and repeatable environment as you can. Such as a pool;-). That's how you find these answers.
At the very least, you will have much more of an idea about whether any improvement in outright power and accuracy is worth giving up on any real world practical advantages (such as ease of loading an ET).

And if it turns out that e.g. an ET comes with a power decrease, I would love "my" builder to openly say that and then point me to tests or videos showing the difference. Then if I still wanted an ET, I would be free to order that having a much more knowledgeable basis for making the choice.

Granted, it would obviously take a lot of building effort and time. And I was about to say that I am sure this approach would sell more guns in the end. But I can only speak for myself, though I speculate that a fair portion of potential customers think the same. But personally, though I am a pneumatic guy, if I was to buy an expensive band gun, I would go for the one which had been thoroughly tested to max out performance, which had the best setup based on a combination of tenacious 'scientific' testing and Real World Experience;-).
If I was a builder, and if I had the resources, I would "steal" Majd's test setup and use it as a standardized test and every model of gun I offered would have a pool test video of it on my website. I would then be able to compare guns and e.g. say that Gun A can penetrate the 10cm test target at 4m and Gun B can do the same at 5.5m and they have both shot two inch groupings.

Cars, computers and what not are bench marked these days and I would actually think there is room and perhaps, even a need in the speargun market for that approach.

All in respect, just sharing my personal take on this. The gun is beautiful, indeed!

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Old 10-24-2016, 12:36 AM   #42
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Re: another wedge hybrid

I never said that you couldn't get your hybrid (with low front mass) to shoot well ... just that it is even more critical in such guns to have a high handle. The Abellan is a high handle gun and can be pushed as hard as you want with no problems. Theoretically you could cut your mass to zero and still be able to push out a shaft at high performance ... if you do a correct design.

By the way ... I don't work for Abellan and paid for my guns retail just like everyone else. The gun does well in my tests for a simple reason ... it is extremely well designed and every little thing has been thought out and optimized. No secret sauce or magic ... just good design. I am also not anti roller (as I keep hearing people tell me) ... it is just the roller guns that I have tested have not performed well. I think it is a good idea to do your own testing as that is the only way to know for sure how things work and to slowly improve and optimize your design. If you go online to get your data, you need to wade through a lot of stuff that is inaccurate or plain advertising BS. Nothing beats doing your own testing and slowly improving things that work. Putting a gun through its paces in a pool can be a very humbling experience ... but sometimes a reality check can get things on the right track.
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Old 10-24-2016, 03:41 AM   #43
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Re: another wedge hybrid

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I never said that you couldn't get your hybrid (with low front mass) to shoot well ... just that it is even more critical in such guns to have a high handle. The Abellan is a high handle gun and can be pushed as hard as you want with no problems. Theoretically you could cut your mass to zero and still be able to push out a shaft at high performance ... if you do a correct design.

By the way ... I don't work for Abellan and paid for my guns retail just like everyone else. The gun does well in my tests for a simple reason ... it is extremely well designed and every little thing has been thought out and optimized. No secret sauce or magic ... just good design. I am also not anti roller (as I keep hearing people tell me) ... it is just the roller guns that I have tested have not performed well. I think it is a good idea to do your own testing as that is the only way to know for sure how things work and to slowly improve and optimize your design. If you go online to get your data, you need to wade through a lot of stuff that is inaccurate or plain advertising BS. Nothing beats doing your own testing and slowly improving things that work. Putting a gun through its paces in a pool can be a very humbling experience ... but sometimes a reality check can get things on the right track.
I just read my last post and it has the wrong feel to it. I didn't mean to take an argumentative tone about this- I'm sorry if it came off that way.
I am all about the facts and testing is the way to go. I actually just realized something- I made two identical wedge hybrids - one with et and one without. I mean - EXACTlY the same in every way - even the same color! haha - so I am in a unique position to do testing. Problem is - if I am right - no one will believe it- since I got a dog in this fight- you know. The reason Majd's tests are so valuable is because he isn't getting paid (he probably SHOULD be paid by abellan haha)
I am going to do tests with those identical guns and see what happens- maybe I will get some of my buddies who shoot koahs or wongs or something to bring their's over and we will bust out the camera and do some live testing and see what's what.
It's too bad - Majd lives on the other end of the earth or I would ship him my gun and let him test it- (maybe someday) My plan at the moment is to do my own tests and either discover I am already shooting the perfect gun (not) or I will dial it in and then send it to him for a neutral test .
That would be my goal .
Also - i greatly value debates and discussions like this - to me - this is how we get to the bottom of such things is by a nice polite debate. I try to maintain a neutral point of view and remain open minded.
I sometimes go "out of bounds" but I hope I haven't pissed anyone off or made myself look foolish .
Thank you - to anyone who responded on here - your input is appreciated much. Especially to the other builders - (and Majd - of course)
One thing is interesting - I have gotten 4 private messages from other builders and 3 by spearos who all had things to say about these subjects they didn't want out there for everyone to read. Two of them were VERY critical of a couple of well known brands. There is one brand in particular - that gets CONSTANT complaints to me from former owners of those guns. This is one of the most respected brands with the best reviews.
Just quite a surprise when I first heard these things! It turns out the owner is just SOOO cool that you just can't hate him or even be mad - so they just keep the secret.
I can't tell - it would be seen as a money thing and he is so loved - I would be lynched - whether the stuff was true or not.
I was pm'ed a video of pool testing of a few of those guns and the video clearly shows crazy muzzle flip and alot of recoil - on all 3 guns tested (all same brand- different lengths)
So there IS a bunch of pool testing that was done - but no one will release the results.
My new pan is to do some more tests for a few months - then I am going to set up a publuic pool test - for all the local guys to bring their guns and do some standardized testing. Right out in the open for all to see- no brands get a free pass - they either do well or do bad - but the tests will be made public. They will be done in a very scientific and neutral way - the exact style of tests will be approved by everyone involved.
Right now _ i want to figure a way to get the EXACT same foam - set up the exact same way as Majd has- so my testing and his will be comparable.
I want to try his penetration tests with all the american brand wood and hybrid guns from some of the brands that I haven't seen or heard about being tested.
I have already sent a pm to Majd about which faom he uses - but I still need to see if I can access the same brand- despite him being so far away. IDK if he has a home depot or what? Maybe I could just pay him to send me some foam- so we can be SURE that we have the same stuff. That seems like the best idea. Maybe if I paid shipping he would do it- or I could send HIM some - one way or the other I want some kind of standardization or the tests won't be comparable.
I know a guy who has 2 abellans and another who has one
the mighty Chad palan has a koah (along with about 100 other guys around here - My buddy Steve Bass - has literally 35 guns of all types of brands
I'm excited about this.
I am going to test - distance shots- to determine drop- take shots at 30 ft - 35ft etc- while gun is strapped to stationary sled , so you can't just aim high.

I am going to make a wheeled sled to strap a gun to - then shoot to see how far it rolls - for recoil

a foam target - to test recoil
each gun will use the same spear for each length gun category tested-
so no variation will effect test.
I only wish there was a way to test speed with an underwater radar gun (first we have to invent one)
All this is coming by the new year - I just gotta know some of this stuff

I also have an idea of a way to test muzzle flip- using the same sled we will use for recoil - using a video camera and a hinged attachment point for the handle- we can place a little stick with lines on it- vertical - next to the muzzle - then when gun is fired- use the camera to se how much lift is created (see how high it jumps in relation to the lines on the stick)

just talking about it is getting me excited to see the results.
This is going to be cool- finally get some answers that can't be debated.
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Old 10-24-2016, 05:03 AM   #44
jstiver09
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another wedge hybrid

Testing speed is easy...put a camera showing the bands of the gun, and when the first frame shows movement of the bands (being fired) you start the timer. When the first sound of the shaft impacting the target occurs you stop the clock. Yes, the sound takes a few milliseconds to travel but if you repeat the test the same way for each gun it won't matter. You can do the test from 5m, 6m, 7m and compare the drop in average velocity over those distances which will tell you how fast the shaft is losing velocity (shaft stability). If you cross reference that with accuracy and penetration test, you will have just about everything covered.

The wheeled sled idea wont give you any good info FYI. The whole thing about recoil and gun design is "felt" recoil. The direction of the recoil of a well designed gun should be straight back, into a well designed handle that will disperse the recoil using the mass of you body..."felt" recoil OR "functional" recoil. In fact, a well designed gun may roll that sled back more that others because it has recoil that is straight back, and predictable.

Also, often times shaft drop happens at the rear first. Using my pool testing as an example, when testing the Abellan Denton 120 (2 bands), at 23' the miss was high. The shaft wasn't dropping much yet but it was slowing down and allowing the tail end to drop/tip to rise. The penetration decreased significantly but there was no low miss. Therefore, I concluded that gun had a "functional range" of 22' because at 23' you started to see a miss high.

Be ready to spend about 10 days in the pool in order to figure all this stuff out enough to get some sort of useful data


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Old 10-24-2016, 06:09 AM   #45
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Re: another wedge hybrid

What a thread to be a fly on the wall. So many ideas for the next builds from some of the most experienced guys around.
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