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Old 12-04-2016, 12:40 PM   #31
SpearMax
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Arrow Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
I honestly did not know, but I am glad you went to the trouble to do the research. We should be careful when making statements about negligence and violation of laws, especially when a fatality has occurred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Nut View Post
It IS mandatory to have a deckhand,if you are a" deckhand diving" your not a backhand, SO yes jfjf it's mandatory
Quote:
Originally Posted by PropMan View Post
OK ,now I am confused,so what are the actual rules of having a deckhand on this type of dive boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diverlen View Post
It says more than 50 passengers must have an additional deckhand, I assume this means that they must have at least 1 anytime, right or wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIVERTOM View Post
I think that with as much bad blood between the dive boats in Jupiter, that if you needed a deck hand, that would have been passed on to the Coast Guard by now. One question might be, is there a different regulation for state and federal waters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnoly View Post
Additional is in reference to other crew on both larger sub T vessels. ie cooks & engine room crew are not deck hands. Unless it is written on the boat's onboard COI {Certificate of Inspection}, there is no formal written USCG regulation for a subchapter T boat under 50 passengers to have a deckhand.

If other's can't specifically name the regulation citation number by chapter and subsection under a Sub-T, then it doesn't exist. All captains know that the COI document is a boat by boat document and one size does not fit all. One vessel will always have a different COI than a very similar vessel docked in the same town. A COI can call out many different requirements on a boat by boat basis depending what the inspector sees. No two vessels are ever exactly the same, no matter how similar they look on the outside.

P.S I got no dog in this fight, Everyone know's I'm a boat whore and dive with all the charter boats in Jupiter and I pay my way like everyone else. I just bring better boat food to pass around than most, so I get invited back.
Jim, Butch, Harald, Len, Tom, John and others, you all have raised good points on this deckhand issue. At the end of the day, John appears to have nailed the answer in that it depends what the Coast Guard issued "Certificate of Inspection" or "CIO" states is the manning requirement for the Emerald Dive Charter boat.

After John's post last night, I went by the local marina this morning and looked at the COI of a local dive charter boat. Sure enough, as John points out, the requirement for 1 deckhand on that particular vessel was listed in their COI.

Now, that does not mean Emerald has to have a deckhand. Since Emerald passed its latest inspection in October 2016, the manning requirements would be on that brand new Certificate of Inspection which was probably issued the month before the Thanksgiving dive.

I have attached the USCG Inspection Guidebooks located at this website:

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cgcvc/cvc1/tool/ib.asp









FYI, Tony

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Last edited by SpearMax; 12-04-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 12-04-2016, 12:48 PM   #32
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

That'd have to be one strong ass dive ladder. That's 450 lbs in 5 to 8' seas w/o his bc/tanks on. I'd say no way, too. That's hard on the equipment.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:20 AM   #33
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Dan, I knew Frank and Kevin, the father and son divers who were famous local spearfishers. And, you are adding an interesting historical perspective I had never heard before concerning Kevin not being allowed to dive because of his large physical stature.

Are you implying that the shark feeding dive operation that rejected David Ley for the Thanksgiving dive did the right thing while the second Shark feeding dive operation should have done the same?

Might there be discrimination issues raised?

Tony
Hi Tony,
In this day and age of insanely stupid "Political Correctness", the knee jerk response would most likely be to "pretend" that the "BIG GUY" over 400 pounds is just like all the other divers, no difference whatsoever.
What Frank did, was really care about his son, and he KNEW there was no practical way to get Kevin back on the boat if he had an accident or medical problem. If he had not cared, I suppose he could have just let Kevin dive, and then hoped for the best....like this latest accident.

So yes, my implication was that the 2nd dive operator, did what was politically correct, but it was morally wrong--in the sense that they really knew they could not help this guy if he passed out. But what mitigates this as a moral issue, is that the operator in question, most likely felt that they could be facing a lawsuit, were they to prevent the big guy from diving with them. In a sense, this was Legal, versus Moral. I think most shops and boats are forced by their insurance carriers to choose Legal over moral, though this conflict is not that common. On the other hand...this IS "Common Sense" !

Last edited by danvolker; 12-05-2016 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:26 AM   #34
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

common sense is not so common
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:36 AM   #35
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

This could be a real bummer to get hit by some small hidden technicality. Randy has the only charter boat where I didn't get yelled at for staying down to long, going to far away from the boat, spearing a fish next to a shark...etc. All the other charters freak out and it's just another dive day on the Emerald. That is a huge plus for long time divers like me that rarely go on charters. The Emerald is good.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:31 AM   #36
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Arrow Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

Dan, your point is well made and taken.

Another major legal consideration in this incident is the legal concept of "'Assumption of Risk" defined as follows:

Quote:
assumption of risk

n. 1) taking a chance in a potentially dangerous situation. This is a typical affirmative defense in a negligence case, in which the defendant claims that the situation (taking a ski-lift, climbing a steep cliff, riding in an old crowded car, working on the girders of a skyscraper) was so inherently or obviously hazardous that the injured plaintiff should have known there was danger and took the chance that he/she could be injured. 2) the act of contracting to take over the risk, such as buying the right to a shipment and accepting the danger that it could be damaged or prove unprofitable.

Source: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2457

The fact David Ley called the dive charter boats and TOLD THEM about his large physical stature is prima facie evidence that he recognized and "assumed" the risk of injury. I imagine he also signed a written waiver as required by all charter boat operators I know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by danvolker View Post
Hi Tony,
In this day and age of insanely stupid "Political Correctness", the knee jerk response would most likely be to "pretend" that the "BIG GUY" over 400 pounds is just like all the other divers, no difference whatsoever.
What Frank did, was really care about his son, and he KNEW there was no practical way to get Kevin back on the boat if he had an accident or medical problem. If he had not cared, I suppose he could have just let Kevin dive, and then hoped for the best....like this latest accident.

So yes, my implication was that the 2nd dive operator, did what was politically correct, but it was morally wrong--in the sense that they really knew they could not help this guy if he passed out. But what mitigates this as a moral issue, is that the operator in question, most likely felt that they could be facing a lawsuit, were they to prevent the big guy from diving with them. In a sense, this was Legal, versus Moral. I think most shops and boats are forced by their insurance carriers to choose Legal over moral, though this conflict is not that common. On the other hand...this IS "Common Sense" !
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:44 AM   #37
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Question Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

Does anyone know who the Dive Master was on Emerald that day? I saw reference to the Dive Master helping David at the surface in these posts on Scubaboard. Is his name Josh?







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Old 12-23-2016, 12:17 PM   #38
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Does anyone know who the Dive Master was on Emerald that day? I saw reference to the Dive Master helping David at the surface in these posts on Scubaboard. Is his name Josh?







I don't think it was Josh , i was told he is a hired gun to feed the sharks from the Bahamas ,might have been Randy's buddy Mr Shark Tales John Dickinson or even Randy himself. Very Sad story , prayers to his family .
When one of us passes away it is felt through out our dive community.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:26 AM   #39
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

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Originally Posted by Aqua Nut View Post
That's why it's mandatory to have a deckhand on the boat with the captain,,,I've never seen a deckhand on emerald charts boat
If you were the deckhand.....do you really think you could pull a guy this big onto the back of the boat? If the boat was ladder type, I see almost no way you could unless you were Brock Lester or the Rock. With a big and low platform...a very strong deckhand "might" be able to....But now you would be omitting all female deck hands, and 90% of male deckhands.

How could the business model used for scuba charters in South Florida, support paying enough big guys to be crew, just in case such a scenario would occur? Would each diver on the boat always be willing to pony up the normal $20 tip, and then add one or 2 more 20's to the 2 other guys needed?
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Old 12-24-2016, 09:47 PM   #40
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Re: RIP David Ley - Firefighter Diver On Emerald Dive Charter Passed Thanksgiving 201

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I don't think it was Josh , i was told he is a hired gun to feed the sharks from the Bahamas ,might have been Randy's buddy or even Randy himself. Very Sad story , prayers to his family .
When one of us passes away it is felt through out our dive community.
You should be very careful when dropping names. Especially if you weren't there and truely have no idea what happened. Better to just keep your mouth shut.
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