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Old 05-24-2023, 01:42 AM   #16
speargunking
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

I read several years back that loran is coming back for a back up to gps.. havent seen anything online since.. the article said it will be called Loran"E",, which the E stands for Enhanced.. the article said it will be much more accurate then Loran C... but like I said havent seen anything else on line.. you can still look up article, just type in Loran E... also I found a brand new in the box, never opened Sitex Ez 7 loran on line back then and bought it for 20.00.. ready to bolt up to boat if it does come back. ... even has the coupler and complete.. just needs the whip antenna!!
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Old 05-24-2023, 01:48 AM   #17
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

if interested go to google and type in "Is Loran E coming back" and you can see the article I read ...
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Old 05-24-2023, 06:30 AM   #18
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

If we have seen how productive the Gulf can be why has it been allowed to be fished down to a remnant of what it was?

Here is a pic from the early 2000's after a charter. This is just me and my co-captains catch. These might be Jose and my fish. The customers had much more fish than this.


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Old 05-24-2023, 11:56 AM   #19
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

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Originally Posted by fishkilla View Post
If we have seen how productive the Gulf can be why has it been allowed to be fished down to a remnant of what it was?

Here is a pic from the early 2000's after a charter. This is just me and my co-captains catch. These might be Jose and my fish. The customers had much more fish than this.


.
Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing something out......your post is an example of why the fishery has become what it has. 20-30 years ago for most, the Gulf seemed like an almost endless supply of fish and was treated that way by many. Now, add in the technology and reliability of four strokes, plus sophisticated electronics and an explosion of the population and you find yourself where we are today.

20-30 years ago, you would be one of the few boats capable of making Middle Grounds runs and not see another boat the entire time you were out there. Its not uncommon to now pass (or be passed) by several boats on a trip out there. Last time I was there, we saw multiple other boats throughout the day, sometimes being able to see as many as 4 as you scanned the horizon.

Not blaming it on anyone, it's just the way it is......sadly, the mentality of taking every legal fish you can has not changed for many. Couple that with the government having no frickin' clue how to correctly manage the fishery and you find yourself where we are today.

Personally for many species, I wouldn't mind seeing the limit decreased and the size increased with commercial size limits mirroring recreation size limits. I believe taking fewer, but more quality fish will pay huge rewards in the long run. Currently, with limits and mentalities the way they are, when one species is closed, another species is targeted mercilessly until it is decimated.....goes on in both the commercial and recreational sector.
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Old 05-25-2023, 12:34 AM   #20
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

There are still lots of fish out there and many places to see 50-100 gags on a spot. I've seen it multiple times on many spots the last 5 years and more. I was just on a 2 day trip Sunday/Monday and between me and 2 divers we had 7 dives with over 50 gags seen on each spot. I personally did a dive in the middle grounds that had 50-60 gags on it from 15-25# each. It tends to be new found spots or spots we don't hit but once a year etc. Problem is most people don't find new spots and over fish/dive their spots so the pressure is so high you kill or push off the fish.

With that being said yes we don't have as many fish as we did 20-40 years ago. But we have more fishermen and technology than ever before. We also have 1000s of fishermen and divers with no accountability or data of harvest/discard info etc that get the majority of quota and fish for the gulf. NOAA fwc and gulf council just guess on what the recreational sector takes out of gulf. It's a big flawed part of data and system that would be a huge help in figuring out how to manage the system.

Most recreational fishermen complain about the commercial sector killing and taking every thing etc. Most commercial boats lease their gags which was cut to no availability this year or own very small portions that cut to basically nothing. We got all our gags in 1 day this year. No more gags for us all year. Not to mention having 40k invested in quota getting cut so severe to 1 days catch for entire year.
All our fish are logged 3x and counted to the half pound. We give the best most recent daily data/research available. Plus we pay for the system to keep track of everything. Have crazy expensive permits, quota, vessel monitoring tracking systems & subscription etc etc etc. Yet we still get our fish and livelihoods cut over and over. Just take a little time and look into how highly regulated the ifq gulf commercial sector is. It will really surprise most of you. Not to mention we provide fresh US seafood to the 99%of America that dont own boats or have a means of catching their own fish.

The whole system is messed up on both sides right now because of too much guessing and flawed data research etc. Only way to fix it is more funding for more correct research and true data. Also sucks to say but if everyone has to report every fish taken out at least we would have a true number of what is coming out of the gulf yearly as a whole. And where the gulfs is on how much it can withstand to reproduce etc from what is taken. I think if the recreational sector had a app and all fish were reported it would really surprise you how much more fish the recreational side takes/discards. I would bet it's over 3-4x what commercial sector takes.

I have been on both sides of this and was recreational for years before ever commercial. I have seen both sides and been on many types of both boats. I have tons of friends in both sectors. It really stinks for all of us. We need to work together so we have the best possible data/research available. This will keep one of the best fisheries in the world great, sustainable, and healthy for all. I'm all for restriction on both sides if their is true factual data/research to back its needed and not off of; well it's our best guess with what we have available bs.

I want a future fishery for my kids to participate in and to be able to provide fresh US seafood to all Americans. With that too happen we need big changes in the system to happen.

It's a lot like our government country and politics right now. Mostly big money corps, businesses, clubs, associations, control and make all the decisions. It keeps them making more money on the fish, fisherman, and all the products,brands, etc involved in the business. They mostly care strictly about profit power greed and money and not the fisheries or smaller people involved. Welcome to corporate America in the fishing world.
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Old 05-25-2023, 07:47 AM   #21
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

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Originally Posted by Diverboy067 View Post
Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing something out......your post is an example of why the fishery has become what it has. 20-30 years ago for most, the Gulf seemed like an almost endless supply of fish and was treated that way by many.
I was part of the problem just as every person who was fishing in the Gulf was part of the problem. I might have been more of a problem due to my ability to get to some of the best locations and crush fish on a level only few can. However I wasn't harvesting more than my legal limit commercially or recreationally. Should I have restricted my catch? Who would I have been leaving the fish for?

March 15 2014 on a commercial boat

Who shot all your fish? I did.




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Old 05-25-2023, 08:32 AM   #22
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

A few years ago. My buddy and I dove a spot in around 60' and saw lots of legal size gags that were closed season. After the dive, we moved about 1/4 mile away. While eating lunch. We noticed a "local" commercial spearing dive boat drop a diver where we had been. About 25 min. later up came the diver with a stringer full of gags. Probably, the same ones we saw and couldn't shoot. My buddy and I talked about what just happened. On the rec. side it sucked that we couldn't shoot any. Also, that boat working "shallow" water was taking gags prior to rec. gag opener that maybe we or someone else might have got. On the comm. side, they were saving fuel, shorter run times, more and longer dives being close in. So, there you have "both sides of the coin".
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Old 05-25-2023, 10:06 AM   #23
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

I think calling the gag grouper fishery a collapse is a stretch. Jewfish nearly collapsed, but not gags. I still see dozens on every spot I dive. The problem isn't overfishing, it's the size of fish being taken. The problem is gag sex. We have harvested too many larger males and if we don't stop, the species will likely collapse. So here we are with a 20 year stock rebuilding plan. The species really needs a recreational slot harvest on top of the short season, this allowing enough to become breeder males and still allow the public access to the food supply. Total ban on non residents taking the species as well.

https://myfwc.com/research/saltwater...ale-abundance/

I have always had empathy for commercial fishing, but if they say a species needs respite, well they should be closed for commercial fishing. Maybe congress can hand out some subsidy money like they do every other industry. It ain't like anyone really gives a shit about this country's debt anyway.
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Old 05-25-2023, 09:01 PM   #24
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

The male gag theory is a big part of the flawed data and guessing. Males being only in deep water / breeding or the very few locations they research and test is total bs. We proved that wrong this past year with male gags fwc tested of ours from 60 foot of water. . And if there are only 2 percent male gags where in the hell do millions of smaller gags keep coming from. That small of a percentage of male to female ratio does not exist in any other fish species and is not possible no matter what they say. They are trying to tell us gags are overfished and were over fished 40 years ago. They can't even tell us a true accurate number of how many fish come out the gulf today recreationally . How the hell can the tell us it was over fished 40 years ago and every year since then if they can't today.

They can tell you to the half pound every single fish every day the commercial sector takes. And have since 2006 when the ifq and logbooks were put in place.

We need big changes and accurate research and data. Too much guessing is part of the problem. New policy and or funding for more research and to protect the fishery.
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Old 05-26-2023, 06:06 AM   #25
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

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They can tell you to the half pound every single fish every day the commercial sector takes. And have since 2006 when the ifq and logbooks were put in place.

THAT IS PURE BULL SHIT!


Some ( or all) commercial fisherman cheat the system!
When you have to RENT/LEASE ( NOT BUY) fish shares from some asshole in Texas ( THAT DOESNT FISH< BUT GETS A HUGE ALLOTMENT) That cost comes out of the fish you take, so I get it, take 2 or 3 times what the rented share is.
Off loading fish onto a friends sailboat, cause it wont get searched... or Hiding places on the boat, etc etc, Come on.

I'm not going to get started on all that is wrong. Being told I cant take grouper on My boat, but I can pay to be on a charter and take it? Being told when my season is open I have a 2 gag limit, but charter boats aren't held to the same?

But, Money talks.

Last edited by SEATUX; 05-26-2023 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 05-26-2023, 07:00 AM   #26
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

Zack you are missing the point. This is not a thread about who is to blame for the collapse of the Gulf grouper fishery. Commercial vs. Recreational. I'm asking "Why was this allowed to happen." In 2021 I had a little over 3,000 lbs of gags in my commercial account and was diving in the NE Gulf. I couldn't catch all of them. Some might say I don't have good numbers or enough numbers. Before 2015 I had no problem catching my quota and sometimes would lease more towards the end of the year. Places that I used to shoot a dozen10 to 15 lb fish I would drop on and shoot 3. There is one number a friend gave me that we shot 33 gags on one drop in the spring of 2015 right before the red tide got bad. The red tide moved all the fish out of the area that I worked and they either went out to the Grounds or further South to much more heavily fished areas. The red tide went away and the fish didn't come back and still haven't come back to the numbers they were in 2014.

Do you honestly think that our National Marine Fisheries Service wants to have hundreds of small time fishermen running all over the Gulf launching and landing in many different locations?

Has there been a drop in recreational boat sales, fishing licenses, tackle sales, fuel sales, marina usage, waterfront home sales, dock installation sales, ect. ?

This was a spawning aggregation that we were legally allowed to wipe out. We back dove it and shot 10 more fish. 43 Gags on one number. There were probably 50 legal gags there and about 20 short fish.


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Old 05-26-2023, 03:55 PM   #27
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

There are still fish like you talk about in other areas and your old area also. I dive lots of your old stomping grounds Yes the red tide did a huge destruction on lots of fish and has been rebuilding. The problem is they need to make rulings and regs on accurate real time data. Not 3 year old data. We have the technology to do all this. We just need more funding to make it happen even quicker. The result is fish get regulated too late or not enough on old data.


On the commercial guys cheating the system. That is a crock of shit and basically impossible anymore. Our boats are satellite gostracked every 15 min. We have to let fwc/NOAA know where we are landing, who we are selling fish to, and what species and how many pounds of each ; 3 hours before we land every trip. We also can only offload fish from 6 am to 6 pm so we can be checked easily at NOAA/fwcs convenience.

This isn't the old days and a bunch of bait fisherman. Most if not all the reef permit holders have 150k minimum invested in permits boats quota. We can lose that and have it taken away from bootlegging 1 fish. Hell we can't legally even take a single fish home to eat off our commercial trips unless it's a pelagic and not pay of the reef permit. It also has to be in separate cooler labeled differently.
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Old 05-26-2023, 04:09 PM   #28
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

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Originally Posted by zackistre View Post
On the commercial guys cheating the system. That is a crock of shit and basically impossible anymore. Our boats are satellite gostracked every 15 min. We have to let fwc/NOAA know where we are landing, who we are selling fish to, and what species and how many pounds of each ; 3 hours before we land every trip. We also can only offload fish from 6 am to 6 pm so we can be checked easily at NOAA/fwcs convenience.
Yet that is NOT what you said;
Quote:
Originally Posted by zackistre View Post
They can tell you to the half pound every single fish every day the commercial sector takes. And have since 2006 when the ifq and logbooks were put in place. .
In the last year or so thing "MAY" have changed a bit,( I Doubt it) but what you originally said is stillPURE BULL SHIT!!

And as far as cheating today goes...as soon as you throw Money into the mix, A way to cheat the system and make more money will ALWAYS take place.
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Old 05-26-2023, 08:10 PM   #29
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

All of the above tracking logging landing etc has been in place since 2006 for commercial. It's nothing new.
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Old 05-27-2023, 07:13 AM   #30
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Re: Why was the Gulf of Mexicos grouper fishery allowed to collapse?

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All of the above tracking logging landing etc has been in place since 2006 for commercial. It's nothing new.
Zac

I referenced this in my first post, it is So Wrong, but has been going on for many Years.
https://www.al.com/news/2016/01/king...make_mill.html

Here are just a couple, look at the dates.

https://myfwc.com/news/all-news/fisheries-case-522/
Release Date: 05-17-2022

https://www.nationalfisherman.com/fl...fisheries-case

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/03/sus...over-the-limit
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