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Old 12-07-2010, 04:21 PM   #1
beconfly
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Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

I was reading another enjoyable thread about opinions as to the ideal WSB gun. These threads are fun, with various supporters of various guns giving out opinions as to which gun is "best". What never seems to happen though, is for anyone to estimate/quantify how much "better" one gun is than another at killing fish. Clearly this would be an extremely challenging thing to quantify. But let me try to put together a thought experiment that, if it were possible to carry out, could possibly be able to answer such a question.

My dream experiment... Lets say there was a laboratory with a super giant kelp forest aquarium, with uniform but varying vis, 5-25ft, and with a constant density of WSB swimming around... I.E. everytime a fish gets killed another one gets dropped into the tank. Lets say 100 regular spearfisherman get to dive in this tank 100 days out of the year. Lets choose a high quality reference gun as the "standard"... lets say the 57 inch Wong Hybrid. With this gun, lets say the average take of fish among all the spearfishers is 100 fish per year. I.E. the "average spearfisher" is able to stalk down, shoot, and land 100 fish a year with this gun... hence the Wong Hybrid sets the WSB hunting performance standard of "100"

Now for the big recockulous question: How many fish do you think this "average spearfisher" could land with a:
Riffe E100?
E120?
E140?
Mako OP 120?
Sea Sniper Pro 60?
Omer Airbalete 110?
Ray Odor Pole spear?
<insert brand here>?

Of course I know that one gun type does not suit all people or all conditions. But in this experiment we are just giving one select gun to 100 lucky ass spearfisher dudes, who get to jump in this tank and go for it. You get to make guess as to how many fish will get killed on average by each gun. And yeah its going to be pretty tough to get the cash together to make this experiment happen, but we can all make our own predictions for free!

My personal guess, based mainly on reading about guns and estimating about kinetic energy of spears, is not worth much. Others with a lot more experience with a range of guns i'm sure could give better estimates.

My poor and wild guesses are:
Riffe E100: 85 (more manuverable, but less power/range)
E120: 96 (similar or worse manueverability, a little less range)
E140: 90 (much less manuverable... similar range?)
Mako OP 120: 92 (nice light weight, smilar maneuverablity, more clanky-noisy which may scare some fish away)
Sea Sniper Pro 60: 99.5 (a bit less maneuverable, a little more range, and fish like the titanium bits)
Omer Airbalete 110: 90 (way more manueverable, very quiet, but less energy)
Ray Odor Pole Spear: 15 (whatever, its just a guess)

And yes I'm well aware that these numbers are all horse feces, but I would like to get estimates from other people about how much better they really think the Wong is than the Riffe or Mako or whatnot, in terms of ability to reliably kill nice large fish like WSB, and nothing else. I guess one thing i haven't factored in here is the number of hits but lost fish... factor that in however you want.
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:57 PM   #2
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

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Originally Posted by beconfly View Post
I was reading another enjoyable thread about opinions as to the ideal WSB gun. These threads are fun, with various supporters of various guns giving out opinions as to which gun is "best". What never seems to happen though, is for anyone to estimate/quantify how much "better" one gun is than another at killing fish. Clearly this would be an extremely challenging thing to quantify. But let me try to put together a thought experiment that, if it were possible to carry out, could possibly be able to answer such a question.

My dream experiment... Lets say there was a laboratory with a super giant kelp forest aquarium, with uniform but varying vis, 5-25ft, and with a constant density of WSB swimming around... I.E. everytime a fish gets killed another one gets dropped into the tank. Lets say 100 regular spearfisherman get to dive in this tank 100 days out of the year. Lets choose a high quality reference gun as the "standard"... lets say the 57 inch Wong Hybrid. With this gun, lets say the average take of fish among all the spearfishers is 100 fish per year. I.E. the "average spearfisher" is able to stalk down, shoot, and land 100 fish a year with this gun... hence the Wong Hybrid sets the WSB hunting performance standard of "100"

Now for the big recockulous question: How many fish do you think this "average spearfisher" could land with a:
Riffe E100?
E120?
E140?
Mako OP 120?
Sea Sniper Pro 60?
Omer Airbalete 110?
Ray Odor Pole spear?
<insert brand here>?

Of course I know that one gun type does not suit all people or all conditions. But in this experiment we are just giving one select gun to 100 lucky ass spearfisher dudes, who get to jump in this tank and go for it. You get to make guess as to how many fish will get killed on average by each gun. And yeah its going to be pretty tough to get the cash together to make this experiment happen, but we can all make our own predictions for free!

My personal guess, based mainly on reading about guns and estimating about kinetic energy of spears, is not worth much. Others with a lot more experience with a range of guns i'm sure could give better estimates.

My poor and wild guesses are:
Riffe E100: 85 (more manuverable, but less power/range)
E120: 96 (similar or worse manueverability, a little less range)
E140: 90 (much less manuverable... similar range?)
Mako OP 120: 92 (nice light weight, smilar maneuverablity, more clanky-noisy which may scare some fish away)
Sea Sniper Pro 60: 99.5 (a bit less maneuverable, a little more range, and fish like the titanium bits)
Omer Airbalete 110: 90 (way more manueverable, very quiet, but less energy)
Ray Odor Pole Spear: 15 (whatever, its just a guess)

And yes I'm well aware that these numbers are all horse feces, but I would like to get estimates from other people about how much better they really think the Wong is than the Riffe or Mako or whatnot, in terms of ability to reliably kill nice large fish like WSB, and nothing else. I guess one thing i haven't factored in here is the number of hits but lost fish... factor that in however you want.
I thought the experiment sounded ridiculous when first reading the description, but then when I got to the part about you having already figured out hypothetical scores (AND made presumptions about the reasons for these scores)... I finally realized that reefer is pretty much legal in CA and it all came together for me.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:05 PM   #3
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

you've been sampling my sister's brownies eh?

get off the internet and crank darkside of the moon
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:08 PM   #4
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment


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Old 12-07-2010, 05:15 PM   #5
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

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Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
I thought the experiment sounded ridiculous when first reading the description, but then when I got to the part about you having already figured out hypothetical scores (AND made presumptions about the reasons for these scores)... I finally realized that reefer is pretty much legal in CA and it all came together for me.
Come on jfjf, play nice. Perhaps i went a bit overboard with the thought experiment, but you seem to be confusing a stoner with bored nerd trying to quantify performance. I bet a stoner wouldn't have maintained that thought process long enough to get it all down on one post. And I'd assume that as a Mako speargun brand supporter you would enjoy this type of question. I actually happen to be a Mako owner myself, and I believe that i'm getting better than 90% of the performance of the custom super guns for 30% of the cost... a 300% value!

I can simplify my question:
What percentage of the fish that you shot with your prefered "ultimate gun", do you think you could have shot with <Brand X, Model Y>


This isn't a complicated question, and i'm not asking for facts, just guesstimates. Wintertime fun.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:22 PM   #6
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

75% but I still think your high
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:39 PM   #7
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

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75% but I still think your high
Ha! Damn you all! My dreams of hypothetical guesstimation of speargun performance have been crushed! Now if you'll all excuse me, i have to go tend to my dreadlocks and order a pizza... i got the muchies again.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:50 PM   #8
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

I am sure it was for medical reason's he started this question.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:17 PM   #9
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

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Originally Posted by beconfly View Post
Come on jfjf, play nice. Perhaps i went a bit overboard with the thought experiment, but you seem to be confusing a stoner with bored nerd trying to quantify performance. I bet a stoner wouldn't have maintained that thought process long enough to get it all down on one post. And I'd assume that as a Mako speargun brand supporter you would enjoy this type of question. I actually happen to be a Mako owner myself, and I believe that i'm getting better than 90% of the performance of the custom super guns for 30% of the cost... a 300% value!

I can simplify my question:
What percentage of the fish that you shot with your prefered "ultimate gun", do you think you could have shot with <Brand X, Model Y>


This isn't a complicated question, and i'm not asking for facts, just guesstimates. Wintertime fun.
I can assure you that if you remove the barrel plugs from a mako railgun, throw away the handle and the muzzle, craft a bowl out of three layers of Reynolds Aluminum Foil and add the mouth piece from a MAKO snorkel, you can fashion a better bong (for 300% less money) than any POS wood gun.

BTW, The camo barrel looks really cool with wisps of smoke eminating from the top.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:34 PM   #10
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

You're leaving out a major part of the equation here. The main reason WSB are such a prized gamefish is that they are near impossible to predict, therefore making the hunt a challenge. If you take the challenge part of it, you might as well put a guy in a pool with a cardboard target and a gun. I dont know how many White Seabass you've shot/killed/landed, but hunting for a month straight without seeing a fish, staring at kelp, waiting for that opportunity, then finally seeing your prize fish at your reach...What you do in those next 3 seconds determines if you will land that fish or not, and i believe the gun itself has very little to do with it.

That being said, i have a Wong 55 CF Hybrid, and have shot seabass with it for the past 2 seasons. It feels like an extension of my arm and i can pretty much hit anything im shooting at. Its a combination of comfortabliity with your weapon, knowing hunting grounds and understanding the game fish you're hunting.

BTW, good luck with your fish tank thingy...
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:56 PM   #11
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

There wouldn't be enough fish to put into the tank if pro 60's were being used.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:39 PM   #12
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
I thought the experiment sounded ridiculous when first reading the description, but then when I got to the part about you having already figured out hypothetical scores (AND made presumptions about the reasons for these scores)... I finally realized that reefer is pretty much legal in CA and it all came together for me.
Come on jfjf, play nice. Perhaps i went a bit overboard with the thought experiment, but you seem to be confusing a stoner with bored nerd trying to quantify performance. I bet a stoner wouldn't have maintained that thought process long enough to get it all down on one post. And I'd assume that as a Mako speargun brand supporter you would enjoy this type of question. I actually happen to be a Mako owner myself, and I believe that i'm getting better than 90% of the performance of the custom super guns for 30% of the cost... a 300% value!



JFJF I thought you were an admin?????????????????????????
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:50 PM   #13
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

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You're leaving out a major part of the equation here...
Hi Mr. Paul, thanks for your input. I'm leaving out that part of the equation on purpose, as I'm trying to focus purely on gun performance here. I'm not actually asking for advise on what WSB gun to buy (already got one), and I'm not trying to focus on the skills of hunting WSB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paul View Post
...hunting for a month straight without seeing a fish, staring at kelp, waiting for that opportunity, then finally seeing your prize fish at your reach...What you do in those next 3 seconds determines if you will land that fish or not, and i believe the gun itself has very little to do with it.
I completely agree with those sentiments, and the part about the gun being a small part of the equation is the major reason I started the thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Paul View Post
That being said, i have a Wong 55 CF Hybrid, and have shot seabass with it for the past 2 seasons. It feels like an extension of my arm and i can pretty much hit anything im shooting at. Its a combination of comfortabliity with your weapon, knowing hunting grounds and understanding the game fish you're hunting.
Nice gun! Ever used a euro gun? If so, wanna guess as to what percentage of those fish you could have landed with a suitable 2 banded Euro 120? I realise that people don't enjoy making these types of guesses, probably because of the unverifiable nature of the question.

And again I completely agree with your input that the success in hunting is due to a combination of many factors, most importantly the skill and knowledge of the hunter. No one can buy skill and knowledge, it has to be earned. But you can buy a gun, and thats the part I'm trying to focus on for purposes of this discussion.

This topic was motivated by my witnessing many young/new divers asking for advice on what gun to buy. When they find out that there is some concensous brand XXX is the "best", it seems they feel compelled to buy brand XXX, even if its 5x more expensive than brand YYY. I believe that if they could get a better general idea of how many more fish they will actually land with brand XXX, maybe they could make a more informed decision as a consumer. If they found out that buying brand YYY would probably result in them landing 96% of the fish they could have landed XXX, then they will be able to decide whether it is worth it to spend the extra money.

Example, for $200 i can land 96% of some potential #fish... to get the last 4% of fish is going to cost me $600... is that worth it to me?

I certainly don't want anybody to interpret me as saying that it is never worth it to drop the extra $$$ on a Wong or Hatch or Sea Sniper or whatever. If you have disposable income and the desire then by all means you should go for the best, just as with any other luxury in life. It just doesn't seem logical for those without plenty of disposable income to be directed towards the high $$$ spearguns just because they are the "best"... those last 4% of fish are gonna cost many of those people a lot more than they're worth.
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:56 PM   #14
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

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There wouldn't be enough fish to put into the tank if pro 60's were being used.
Okay... so thats one vote for the SSP landing infinitely more fish than the Wong 57. That may skew my results a bit...
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:05 PM   #15
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Re: Wintertime daydreaming hypothetical bs gun thought experiment

I would think that it comes down to the indian. Not the arrow. The gun is just a means. Given enough time to work with any gun. It will land as many fish as any other gun. If your asking about off the shelf it is this accurate well I would suggest looking to Hawaii Skin Divers mag as they have done several side by side test on accurace.
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