SEA HORNET Clone from CHINA!!

[Spear One]

Originally Posted by popgun pete

Kevin I don't think they held any patents and Wally certainly had no patent on his trigger mechanism, those men were from that generation where a man was as good as his word and a firm handshake was all that was needed to make a binding agreement respected by all parties. Blatantly copying and profiting from another man’s efforts would have been anathema to the men of that era.

However Fred Biller certainly patented the Sea Hornet when he elongated the safety lever so that you could operate it with your trigger finger and he also hardened the sear lever to create an improved bearing surface with the trigger's softer material.

Yes, Fred Biller did patent his version of the Sea Hornet in the USA and he also patented the current AB Biller design in 1985. However, both of those patents have since expired.

[popgun pete]

Originally Posted by Spear One

Yes, Fred Biller did patent his version of the Sea Hornet in the USA and he also patented the current AB Biller design in 1985. However, both of those patents have since expired.

As you know "Sea Hornet" in Australia has fallen on hard times and has virtually disappeared from the dive industry in terms of spearfishing products when once they were a dominant presence. Their last effort was the MARXMAN “eurogun” style speargun, but very little is known about it.

[Spear One]

Originally Posted by popgun pete

Kevin I don't think they held any patents and Wally certainly had no patent on his trigger mechanism, those men were from that generation where a man was as good as his word and a firm handshake was all that was needed to make a binding agreement respected by all parties. Blatantly copying and profiting from another man’s efforts would have been anathema to the men of that era.

However Fred Biller certainly patented the "Sea Hornet" trigger mechanism when he elongated the safety lever so that you could operate it with your trigger finger and he also hardened the sear lever to create an improved bearing surface with the trigger's softer material.

Rogers on that! Unfortunately it seems those “mans word and a handshake days” are over. I have had so many of my products and ideas knocked off by copy cats it’s hard to count. Those of us who take the time and spend the money to develop new products only to see others make a cheaper or lesser quality version of it is really aggravating. And then of top of that they often claim it was their original idea......

[Spear One]

I became aware of this China version of a Sea Hornet about 6 years ago. The manufacturer sent me a few guns to check out. I removed the trigger cartridge from the grip and then removed the trigger and sear from the cartridge to inspect the stamping quality etc. The trigger, sear, and safety assembly looked pretty good considering it was a stamped trigger. Sea Hornet and Biller both use stamped production triggers and sears.

However, the problem I had with the trigger was....... upon closer inspection I realized that the flat spring that sits between the trigger and the sear was not made from spring stainless and it was also too long. The Sea Hornet and Biller triggers both use a “spring steel” flat spring in their triggers. Spring steel is essential in these triggers because it supplies the necessary pressure between the trigger and sear when it is in the latched position so you do not have a “hair trigger”. Spring steel does not have as much memory as non spring steel when it is held in an arched position and therefore will keep a more constant or consistent pressure between the trigger and sear.

The sample Chinese guns I received had mild or non spring steel springs in the triggers. When I removed the springs there was a significant arch to the spring which immediately alerted me that the spring was not spring stainless. Now the danger of a non spring stainless spring in this trigger is that once the spring gets memory it no longer supplies the necessary pressure between the trigger and the sear and you will have a “hair trigger” situation. On top of that, the spring was too long which created a much higher arch in the spring than was typical. I suspect they may have made the spring longer in an effort to apply more spring pressure between the trigger and sear because the mild steel was not apply the proper pressure in the shorter length commonly used by SeaHornet and Billler triggers.

I contacted the Chinese manufacture and told them about my concerns. I told them that I was not willing to import these spearguns unless they installed a spring steel spring that was the proper length. After several weeks of emailing back and forth I came to realize that my concerns were falling on deaf ears and I decided I was not going to import these spearguns.

I have no idea if they ever changed to a spring steel trigger spring. I would like to inspect the trigger that Cuzza purchased if he is willing to let me do it. Pete, maybe you could inspect the one you bought as well. If they did not switch to a spring stainless trigger spring you should be extra careful when using those spearguns as a misfire or unintended release of the spearshaft is a very real possibility based on my previous inspection of the sample spearguns I received some years go.

[popgun pete]

I will pop the mech open and check, thanks for the head's up although I only purchased the gun to see if my suspicions were correct. Actually this is the second unauthorized copy of a "Sea Hornet" as this one appeared a decade or so earlier. http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=72403

[Spear One]

Originally Posted by popgun pete

i will pop the mech open and check, thanks for the head's up although i only purchased the gun to see if my suspicions were correct. Actually this is the second unauthorized copy of a "sea hornet" as this one appeared a decade or so earlier. http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=72403

10-4

[popgun pete]

I don't think they acted on your advice Kevin as the leaf spring still looks a bit long. I tried to fit it into the levers’ locating positions, but it popped out. Alongside it I have shown the original Sea Hornet trigger mechanism.

[Mikel_24]

I don't want to be rough and I am pretty sure that those guns are perfectly capable of stringing fish today as they were a few decades ago... BUT... while they seem to be a reliable design... Why would anyone care to copy such an outdated model?

Is there still so much demand of these guns in the used market that justifies the production of new batches?

Also, regarding the ears required for the slide ring not to escape... Does this means that you need to purchase special shafts to work with this system? Is this stlyle of shaft still manufactured today? Don't those ears interfere with the closed muzzle?

[CuzzA]

Kevin, as it turns out I got a message from the seller stating they are going on Holiday for the next couple weeks and asked if it is a problem. I told them don't bother and to cancel the order. So I won't be able to bring it by.

I could be wrong, but don't Ocean Rhino, Sea Hornet and Biller guns all use the same shaft design?

[Spear One]

Originally Posted by popgun pete

I don't think they acted on your advice Kevin as the leaf spring still looks a bit long. I tried to fit it into the levers’ locating positions, but it popped out. Alongside it I have shown the original Sea Hornet trigger mechanism.

It appears they did not. As you can see the natural arch in the spring is not even in the center of the spring, it is about 25% off to the left of center. Also, the excessive length of the spring adds to the off center arch in the spring. The spring should have a slight but even arch to it when it is in the relaxed position. A very light arch is normal in a spring steel spring. Thanks for confirming my suspicions Pete.

[Spear One]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Kevin, as it turns out I got a message from the seller stating they are going on Holiday for the next couple weeks and asked if it is a problem. I told them don't bother and to cancel the order. So I won't be able to bring it by.

I could be wrong, but don't Ocean Rhino, Sea Hornet and Biller guns all use the same shaft design?

Yes, all three of those spearguns use the same spearshaft. Sea Hornet and Biller use the Wally Gibbins design trigger. Ocean Rhino uses a totally different designed trigger. The ocean Rhino trigger will take much higher band power and still provide a smooth trigger pull compared to the Sea Hornet or Biller trigger. The Biller trigger is an improved version of the Gibbins design as their stamping quality is much better than the Sea Hornet and Biller uses a 17-7 heat treated sear which provides a smoother trigger pull than the Sea Hornet. The Wally Gibbins design was very innovative for its time in the 1960’s and it was an important step in the evolution of modern trigger designs.

[popgun pete]

Originally Posted by Mikel_24

I don't want to be rough and I am pretty sure that those guns are perfectly capable of stringing fish today as they were a few decades ago... BUT... while they seem to be a reliable design... Why would anyone care to copy such an outdated model?

Is there still so much demand of these guns in the used market that justifies the production of new batches?

Also, regarding the ears required for the slide ring not to escape... Does this means that you need to purchase special shafts to work with this system? Is this stlyle of shaft still manufactured today? Don't those ears interfere with the closed muzzle?

No because they are used in conjunction with a stop ring of a larger diameter than the ears make sticking out on either side of the shaft and that stop ring is an aligning bush in the closed muzzle until the ears knock it free. That system has been used from the earliest times in spearfishing when spring guns ruled as early band rubber was very weak and deteriorated fairly rapidly.

[popgun pete]

Years ago and just before the "Fathers of Spearfishing" get together in 2000 I was talking to Wally about his speargun trigger mechanism and how he came to design it. The "Undersee" trigger mechanism had then arrived and was regarded as the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread. Wally said he made one himself then wondered if the mechanism could be reversed, so he set about working out how such a mechanism would be arranged. He and an associate John Lawson did some experiments in the workshop and decided that a single leaf spring could be used to bias the levers and dry fire the mechanism. The rest is history. One advantage that Wally cited was that the new trigger mechanism would relatch by the slightest push on the spear with one finger and that is absolutely how it works. Ted Preece was looking for a trigger mechanism for his proposed “Sea Hornet” speargun and asked Wally if he could use that mechanism which Wally was already using in his own shoulder stock speargun. A gentlemen’s agreement was reached to pay Wally a royalty on the right to use his reverse trigger mechanism and again the rest is history. If you study the circle analysis you can see the subtlety of the design which is unmatched even by modern mechanisms until relatively recently. Bear in mind that the original version has much thicker levers and that in the production “Sea Hornet” they were sized to meet the needs of two bands of 5/8” diameter or one of 3/4” diameter. Wally’s own shoulder gun could easily cope with two 3/4” bands.

[Spear One]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Kevin, as it turns out I got a message from the seller stating they are going on Holiday for the next couple weeks and asked if it is a problem. I told them don't bother and to cancel the order. So I won't be able to bring it by.

Probably a good decision! The scary this is they will continue to sell these spearguns into the USA market. It’s unfortunate because it’s a very cheap and easy fix and the overall quality of the gun was actually pretty good considering it’s price point.

[popgun pete]

Some automobile windscreen wiper blades have two thin strip spring stainless steel straps positioned either side of the rubber blade refill which can be used to fabricate a better spring for these reverse trigger mechanisms. The correct form is shown on the "Sea Hornet" mech photo.