"Over night" bag limits

[Nathan Florian]

I am sure this topic has been brought up before...lets say you leave out Saturday morning for the MG's at the start of ARS, fish all day, stay the night and come home Sunday. What are the rules on legally keeping a two day limit on ARS and Grouper? I have looked on the FWC site and cant find anything about "over night trips" and bag limits.

[SEATUX]

You're allowed one day's limit.

[Nathan Florian]

Originally Posted by SEATUX

You're allowed one day's limit.

Thanks for the info

[Watergator]

There seems to be a loop hole in that on charter boats you can keep 2 days worth if there is a pay stub showing the trip is for 2 days. If someone in your group has a captains license they can buy a charter captains license and then all you need is a receipt book to write pay stubs and the rules don't state what a minimum for the charter is so it could be $1 (or whatever y'all are each paying in gas) and be legal.

The permit for 4 passengers starts at $201, which is less than a lot of boats would spend on a round trip, and the more often you do overnight trips, the more it pays itself off.

I don't know of anyone that does this, but I feel like it could be something to look into especially for people frequenting the MG.

[OWS]

I am pretty sure if it is an overnight charter 2 captains are required.

[skinneej]

Originally Posted by Watergator

There seems to be a loop hole in that on charter boats you can keep 2 days worth if there is a pay stub showing the trip is for 2 days. If someone in your group has a captains license they can buy a charter captains license and then all you need is a receipt book to write pay stubs and the rules don't state what a minimum for the charter is so it could be $1 (or whatever y'all are each paying in gas) and be legal.

The permit for 4 passengers starts at $201, which is less than a lot of boats would spend on a round trip, and the more often you do overnight trips, the more it pays itself off.

I don't know of anyone that does this, but I feel like it could be something to look into especially for people frequenting the MG.

That would get you a nice fine unless you are on a trip that spans more than 24 hours and unless you have a sleeping berth for each passenger aboard the vessel.

http://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/r...xtended-trips/

Also note that the exception applies to certain species.

[skinneej]

http://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/r...xtended-trips/

[100days-a-year]

Fed fisheries rules would apply in the MG as well as USCG.CFR50 covers it all

[Nathan Florian]

Originally Posted by skinneej

That would get you a nice fine unless you are on a trip that spans more than 24 hours and unless you have a sleeping berth for each passenger aboard the vessel.

http://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/r...xtended-trips/

Also note that the exception applies to certain species.

4 sleeping bags, a big tarp, some type of cooking device and a shizit load of beer would make this legit. I have been thinking about getting my captains license so I can do some part time stuff with one of the local dive shops. Another $200 bucks would be worth the extra catch after the first trip.

[skinneej]

Originally Posted by Nathan Florian

4 sleeping bags, a big tarp, some type of cooking device and a shizit load of beer would make this legit. I have been thinking about getting my captains license so I can do some part time stuff with one of the local dive shops. Another $200 bucks would be worth the extra catch after the first trip.

You know this for 100% sure, or is this what makes it legal in your own mind?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/92.20-20

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...-sec393-76.pdf

A sleeping bag is not a sleeping berth. These may not be the best examples, but I am sure you could find a legal definition for it out there.

Secondly, the captain's license is way more than $200. I've probably got about $900-$1000 invested in mine with sea school, testing fees, drug test, physical, etc. Then, the charter permit costs money every year...

Also, to give a valid receipt, you would have to be a valid business. You can't run a legit charter operation without having some sort of business license, file taxes, etc. You really going to start up a business to try to pull something like this off and try to convince a judge that the guys on the boat are not really your buddies, but instead, true customers? Hey, good luck!!!

Let's say you were still convinced that you were on the right side of the law. FWC is still going to write you a ticket (actually several tickets) at which point it will be between you and the judge. You will go to court which means you will likely be taking the day off of work. Are you going to hire a lawyer for $5000 to get you out of $4000 worth of tickets? And when the judge says to you "Each offense is worth up to $450 in fines and 30 days in jail for the 8 tickets you have in your hand" are you willing to push it to the end? 240 days in jail is a long time... A lawyer doesn't guarantee you anything except a bill...

Some things are just not worth it... Fish are one of those things...

[Watergator]

Even though I was the original proponent of the captains license a for extra fish I'm beginning to see that its probably not worth it. Beyond what skinneej said about convincing a judge, the increased fish wouldn't be enough. Two captains are required and captains are not allowed limits of grouper, snapper, or AJ. That cuts out a lot of what people go to the middle grounds for.

http://gulfcouncil.org/fishing_regul...egulations.pdf

My thought process when I originally suggested it (without much research) was having seen and talked to the mullet fishermen who tow a canoe behind their boats which allows them two boat limits. It seemed to me that it should be just as easy for us to get around the charter specification.

I still think that the sleeping bags would qualify as sleeping space, but unless you already have all of the certifications as a charter, it's probably not worth the hoops you'll have to jump through.

[skinneej]

Keep in mind, you are talking about GOM vs SAFMC. Rules are not the same. Also, I never saw a "sleeping space" requirement. It used the term "sleeping berth". And, as I pointed out in the links, there are some defined regulations\guidelines about what constitutes a "berth".

Think about it. If the laws were that open, why would you even need a sleeping bag? Just tell the officer you are going to sleep on the floor in the cockpit? Does one really think that a nylon covering in the form of a sleeping bag, would make it "legal"? Why not a blanket, or a bedroom sheet? Heck, just tell them that you are using a life jacket as a pillow and your rain coat as a covering... I'm sure they will go for that too...

[Salamispear]

Just food for thought...I charter, and once my boat is outside of 9nm in the GOM, the state charter fishing license does not apply. Since I never dive or fish inside of 9nm, I only have the Federal Fisheries licenses...that wasn't a couple hundred...that was $8,000 for the reef and pelagic permits.

[skinneej]

Originally Posted by Salamispear

Just food for thought...I charter, and once my boat is outside of 9nm in the GOM, the state charter fishing license does not apply. Since I never dive or fish inside of 9nm, I only have the Federal Fisheries licenses...that wasn't a couple hundred...that was $8,000 for the reef and pelagic permits.

Could be different for the GOM. That is definitely not the case on the SAFMC side... State waters only go out to 3 nm on this side but the state DNR does enforce federal regulations. I think they receive subsidies for being the enforcement for the feds.

[slowboat]

Not to mention registering your vessel as "commercial" which leads to other costs.

Once you start adding all the additional safety gear and Marine Safety Officer inspection , it might not be worth it.

Also you have to buy an existing Gulf reef fish charter lisc which cost as much as a commercial one.

It might actually be cheaper to go to a seafood market.